Our Honeymoon is over!

Had the car 7 weeks, used the top 5 times and the other day, on my way to work.... I put the top down for my 5 mile drive to work. It was the first morning (6.30AM) of 70 (F) degrees and I really wanted to ENJOY my car. While dropping the top I did hesitate on the control button, but it all worked well. Arriving at work it was time to 'close and lock the car'. The deck went up, the top moved into position and came down to top 'latching'. The top had a "slight gap" at the rear window rubber moldings, and would not move any more. The info script showed 'top not secure', and nothing would move. I tried "pulling the top down" into position, but to no avail. Rear panel up deck lid up. Tried for over 5 minutes to latch the top in the up position. No luck. Then 'lifted' while pressing button, no luck. Then 'lifted' while intermitantly pressing the top button and some success. Got the top 1/2 folded and then continuously 'tapping the button' not holding it, the top folded, the panel retracted, and the deck lid closed. I see NO FLUID leaks, I see no different operational methods other than my 'hesitation' durring lowering of the top. I have spent the past 1.5 hours reading all your previous posts on the TOP PROBLEMS subject, and I reluctantly felt I needed to start this thread. To my "fashion sence" I am one of three who own XLRs in this town, to my "impending demise" I am the only LOCAL as the others are winter visitors. We have a local CHEVY Dealer and they state that they can FIX IT. THEY FIXED our suburban and damaged the leather on the driver's seat. THEY FIXED our ESV and left grease and a scratch in the rear compartment area. IF I cannot repair this myself, I will be forced to take it to a dealer. (It's under warranty) "I thank you all in advance for any MAGIC you would bestow on my humble soul" Thank you in advance, George PS I'm between Vegas and Phoenix for real CAD service dealers.

Your post doesn't specify if you shut the engine off or disconnected the negative terminal on the battery to reset the system. It also doesn't mention if you were in Hydraulic Bypass while you were manually trying to move the top. If you aren't in Bypass, you're fighting hydraulic pressure and can do more harm than good. Continuously tapping the up/down switch isn't recommended either. The folding top system works by comparing encoder counts (as a function of voltage) to previously "learned" values. If they don't fall within a specified range, the FTC module stops the process and issues a Top Not Secure message. This is to protect the top,

One suggestion: Try resetting the system by disconnecting the battery and cycling the top again. Keep the switch depressed throughout the up/down cycle for best results.

If you don't trust your dealer, you're in big trouble as far as the top is concerned. Your warranty is only as good as the tech that performs the work.

You don't have many choices with this car: 1) You can take a chance with a dealer that has a poor track record with you. 2) Find another dealer, or 3) Invest in a Tech II/CANdi tester, a shop manual and a set of potentiometers and switches. Sure it's pricey, but if you plan on keeping the car after the warranty expires, start saving now. As any vehicle ages, all kinds of weird problems occur. This one will prove to be no exception, especially with 23 modules controlling it.

The root cause of almost all of the top problems experienced by XLR owners in all the forums I keep an eye on, are faulty/misaligned switches and sensors.

Good luck!

CC

Thank you. I don't know if I was in 'hydralic bypass' or not. The pump motor was running and at one point called out 'pump motor overheat'. I don't understand why it has failed to operate? I will do as you suggest: disconnect the battery and then re-try the top action. Is this top THAT TOUCHY? "I did what I could to close the trunk lid" "The lights in the trunk were on and I had to work a full 8 hours" "I love this car but I can't be distracted at work by a car that is not up to it's 'quality/price level". "I work on computerized control systems on Police Patrol boats all the way up to 185+ MPH powerboats" " Many people's lives depend on my BEING IN CONTROL of my actions, I can't be distracted at work by a car that SHOULD perform it's normal functions without problem". I am sorry to vent here, but I've never had a problem with a GM car this early or nor this tragic in my past personal 37 years with them. "I sure hope this works!"

After you have disconnected/connected the battery the windows have to "learn" the distance they have to travel, this step should be performed before you attempt to play with the top. To accomplish this hold the window switch down for 10 seconds after the window has closed, lower the window and hold again for 10 seconds. Now attempt the top maneuver.

Good luck,
Floyd

Thank you! My area of knowledge is limited to 'what I install, as to programing' so any input in these areas is GREAT HELP. Do you know if the TOP needs to learn anything prior/durring it's first cycle? Thank you for all your help! George

No, the top takes it's queue from what it learns from the windows. If you're able to get the windows to work properly (stay closed when using the express mode) the top should be good to go.

And, yes, the top is that touchy! If you wind up taking it to the shop be sure they update the top's software.

Again, good luck,
Floyd

Thank you! My area of knowledge is limited to 'what I install, as to programing' so any input in these areas is GREAT HELP. Do you know if the TOP needs to learn anything prior/durring it's first cycle? Thank you for all your help! George

George,

The "learning" for the top is flashed into the vehicle's memory by the Tech 2 scan tool. Any time a new sensor is installed, the system must be re-calibrated for the replaced sensor. To calibrate the top, the tech places the scan tool in "Calibrate" and cycles the top open and closed. During this time the tool records the encoder counts (expressed as a voltage) and determines the range of voltages the various sensors produce when they are operated through their full range of nominal motion during both cycles. This matrix of numbers is flashed to the system as the top's operating parameters. Any time after that, if the voltages don't fall into the expected parameters of the matrix, the system will continue to drive the top towards the expected value, until a limit switch signals end of travel, before it times out and delivers the dreaded, "Top Not Secure" message.

If a sensor becomes loose and gets mechnically out of whack, it will produce different than expected voltage values. There is a bonding procedure to minimize sensors from loosening, but depending on the year of your car, it may or may not have been done at the factory, and is done when replacing a failed component subsequently.

So to answer your question: the values for the sensors are already iin your car. If something has changed (mechanically or electrically) to cause the values to be different, the top needs to be re-learned. The only values you can input are when you re-index the windows after a loss of power. As Floyd said, window indexing is important, because the first thing the folding top control module does is lower the windows when the switch is depressed.

To place your top in hydraulic bypass, you turn the valve on the pump manifold counter-clockwise; details are in your owner's manual. The bypass valve equalizes the supply and return headers to the pistons/hydraulic rams that lift/lower the decklid, rear tonneau, front tonneau, top and header latch.

The motor overtemp message you got was from running the motor too long. If it's too cold (or too hot) it won't run. There is a thermal sensor in the folding top module and one in the pump assembly.

Keep us posted as to how you restore your top to proper operation so we can add it to the knowledge base. Everything I've written is of a general nature and as such, will not cover every contingency. There are exceptions to every rule and your post as to how it is resolved educates all of us.

Good luck!

CC :seeya

Thank you all. I did remove negative cable for 2 minutes. I did re-program the windows and they do operate corrctly. The deck lid and filler panel do operate correctly, but the TOP DOES NOT MOVE. It lies 'limp' in the folded position with no signs of any action. I see no fluid leaks. All I did to induce this failure is 'hesitate' while lowering the top? Also, my local dealer is a CHEVY dealer. Will they have the correct programming for this top (like a Vette?) ? It has also now lost the tire pressure readings, will I need to drive it to re-gain the pressure readings?

OK now its time for the obvious....did you happen to reseat the top protection tray in the trunk??? Just pull it out and then be sure that the switches on both sides are seated in the recepticles.

ALSO, you may want to read through the manual procedure to put the top up again.

That way you can start over and put it down with the switch.

As you know the cargo divider has to be in the stored position before the top can operate. I have had the divider come unlatched just by normal driving vibration. To solve that problem, a single wrap of electrical friction tape around the cargo divider pins will keep them secure in the catch and the switch depressed.

Bob

I really hate to tell you this but mine did the exact same thing around Christmas. Bumping the switch and helping it did get it up like your. I took it to the caddy dealer for repair. 2 sensors a module and $1200 later it was fixed. It quit about a month ago again and I had to drive home 120 miles in 60 degree weather. I pulled in the garage and tried it once more and up it went. It works for another 3 weeks and this weekend I took it to Nashville and it wouldn't go down this time so I called the dealer today and made an appointment for tomorrow. On the war home today I tried it again and down it went. I started calling it Trixie because it's like a stripper. Real pretty to look at but real high maintenance. I cant take it to the dealer no if it is working again. I really don't know what to do.

YES YES and YES, I did check the switches and re installed the divider just to be sure. I just got back from my local Chevy dealer. The TECH was friendly and seemed to be knowledgeable on the subject. He; "updated top module and re-calibrated 2 sensors, top lock and trunk position". Top works great (for now) but the driver's side glass now scrapes inside the door in 2 places. I have 2 scratches on the outside of the door glass near the mirror. They are minor scratches at this time (one travel) and I showed the service writer the same day, as I had not gone home yet. How much do the 'shop manuals' for this car cost? Are they also on disc? Thank you all for your help!!!

Shop (and owner's) manuals are available from www.helminc.com, but they're pricey. I bought the same manuals on eBay for about $55. The top section alone is hundreds of pages of light reading; zzzzzzz. Keep an eyeball on eBay and you may get lucky if you don't mind waiting a little while.

There is a current listing for the GM XLR Features and Systems course workbooks w/videos listed for around $100. I have both of these books and they're excellent, lots of concise information with plenty of pictures. I also picked up the folding top servicing DVD for around $25 a couple of months ago. I'm getting ready to buy a Tech 2 so I can do more work on the car rather than keep driving down to the dealer for sensor alignments, etc. Those are readily available on eBay for $2200-4300, with the latest versions of the software. Books are good, but you need a scan tool to really dig into this car.

CC :cheers

Woah - you're getting serious about all this.

I almost bought a tech2 as well - so all the software updates for the modules in the XLR are stored on the handheld? How do you get updates over time?


Shop (and owner's) manuals are available from www.helminc.com, but they're pricey. I bought the same manuals on eBay for about $55. The top section alone is hundreds of pages of light reading; zzzzzzz. Keep an eyeball on eBay and you may get lucky if you don't mind waiting a little while.

There is a current listing for the GM XLR Features and Systems course workbooks w/videos listed for around $100. I have both of these books and they're excellent, lots of concise information with plenty of pictures. I also picked up the folding top servicing DVD for around $25 a couple of months ago. I'm getting ready to buy a Tech 2 so I can do more work on the car rather than keep driving down to the dealer for sensor alignments, etc. Those are readily available on eBay for $2200-4300, with the latest versions of the software. Books are good, but you need a scan tool to really dig into this car.

CC :cheers

The Tech 2 stores it's info on a 32MB card that can be updated via the web from various services that offer paying subscribers updates. Because of the higher-speed GMLAN, you also need the CANdi module. I've gone back and forth as to whether or not the cost for this tool can be justified. As many of these posts (and my experiences as well) show, even simple repairs require a Tech 2 to test, troubleshoot and verify proper operation. The days of self-taught auto mechanics are over. It takes beaucoup and continuous training to develop the expertise to wear the many different hats required to properly fix today's vehicles. They are powered as much by technology as the fuel they burn.

I'm not into engine rebuilding or anything like that, but with so many electronics modules and discount GM parts available via the web, it's nice to know if I keep the car for more than four years I am not totally dependent on a dealership for every little thing that crops up. The Northstar system is well-designed and very reliable, but the XLR's electronics can be problematic. I've got several vehicles ranging from 5-15 years old, and none of them even come close to the repair bills I've had with the XLR while owning it for the past thirteen months. I'm confident the major issues have been resolved, but should I run into an intermittent top problem, etc, it would be nice to trap a code and have an idea of what's wrong. And if I can learn more about the car and help someone else, so much the better. I've learned a bunch from the knowlegeable folks who contribute to these forums with their expertise, insights, educated guesses and experience.

The best part is, being a useful tool, I can always sell it if I don't need it anymore!

CCC :seeya

Had exactly the same thing happen to my 2009 last Saturday. I called the roadside assist and tried to get a tech to come out to fix the problem. Trunk lid came up but the top would not retract, couldn't close the trunk lid. Waited about 10 minutes and tried it again worked fine. Took it to the Cadillac dealer and ran the codes. No codes found. Apparently the interuption in power sent the computer into a reboot. After the reboot cycle everthing worked as advertized. Have had no problems with many cycles since.

Hi! Well my 'window scratches' seem to be self inflicted wounds. They were made by the outer window seal. "Sand and dirt in the rubber scratched the glass". I paid $70 + dollars to hear that. (not warranty) "So now I can't park my car outside or at work!" "It will get dirty and scratch the windows". Can I buy the softwear and cable for the "scan tool"? I have a laptop that I use for all other programing and I'm thinking 'flash card' with the proper cable. I have software now able to 'look at the motor' for tuning purposes, (but no automotive cable) are any of the latest programs available to us?

AzGeo:

I am curious in your assessment, will the window scratches buff out if it is done by a good glass person??

Regards

In regards to your question concerning adding a compatible cable to a PC to communicate with the XLR for diagnostic purposes, nothing is easy. This is after all, an XLR.

While there are aftermarket scan tools available to peer into a car's innards, the XLR (and I believe the Saturn Ion) are the first vehicles to employ the new functional diagnostic architecture using both the Class 2 and GMLAN high-speed bus. Not only do you need to use an expensive Tech 2 scan tool but you also need to use an inline CANdi (Controller Area Network diagnostic Interface) module as well. The CANdi module allows the Tech 2 to have bi-directional communication with both buses.

The Tech 2 has a 32MB card with diagnostic firmware pre-installed. The firmware allows you to select the year/make/model of vehicle and configures it to comunicate accordingly, after it "learns" the vehicle (I/Os with the buses and modules to determine what's there.)

After months of going back and forth, I broke down and ordered a Tech 2 today since I really like the car and want to keep it awhile but not be totally dependent on a dealership. With an average repair bill of 3-400 in labor, I should recoup my investment within two years at the present rate of malfunctions I've experienced. And should I decide I don't need it or sell the car, I can always offer the tool up for sale and get some of my investment back.

I'll post my experiences with the Tech 2 once it arrives and I get educated a bit.

CC :cheers

PS: Feeling charitable to my country's ailing economy and after reading many positive reviews from my fellow forum members, I ordered a Corsa exhaust system as well. If it sounds half as good on this car as my other one, I will be very pleased indeed.

I'm guess that we'll be setting up a "CC's Tech 2 Scan Tool Rental" Sponsor spot on the XLR Forum real soon.

Rent the tool ship it out and return it in the same box. $19.95.....kinda like Netflix.

Seriously you should save a lot of money by having the Scan tool in your possession.

Regards

THANK YOU! I am aware of "CAN" systems, as they are used in Marine environments too. I'll check with MOTEC and see if they have any info. I am able to connect with my 2005 Cad ESV, (on my laptop) but not with this car, so I'm still in LEARN MODE. Thank you for your help! George