My top started acting up the other day. Have scanned the other threads, but have seen nothing concerning this particular problem.
The trunk goes up, the top goes down, but that's as far as the process goes. I am able to put the top back up again from there. Took it to the dealer, he ordered the console switch.
After the switch replacement and reprogramming the top, it worked once, up & down, then stopped again in the same place as before. It acts like it wants to continue... I can hear a click, but nothing happens other than minor top movement in the truck. Goes in again tomorrow - will let you know what happens.

It sounds like a folding top position switch for the rear tonneau. You can check the folding top input data with a tech2. Look for one of the switches to go to "mid" position during top operation.

Bruce :)

My top started acting up the other day. Have scanned the other threads, but have seen nothing concerning this particular problem.
The trunk goes up, the top goes down, but that's as far as the process goes. I am able to put the top back up again from there. Took it to the dealer, he ordered the console switch.
After the switch replacement and reprogramming the top, it worked once, up & down, then stopped again in the same place as before. It acts like it wants to continue... I can hear a click, but nothing happens other than minor top movement in the truck. Goes in again tomorrow - will let you know what happens.
There's tons of information on this issue.

Please go to Technical Section and then scroll to the bottom of your display screen and set the messages displayed from the 75 day default to The Begining and then click the Show Threads button there. Then go to the Top Section and you'll see the posts. You will have to do this each time you want to view the history since it will default back to 75 days.

If you have any problems please let me know.

1) Have your technician recalibrate the control module.
2) Check to see if all 3 potentiometers are secure and are not loose or wiggle.
3) check the right hand guide pin receiver located in the header, your tech would need to verify that a wire isn't pinched or the limit switch itself is not damaged.

It sounds like a folding top position switch for the rear tonneau. You can check the folding top input data with a tech2. Look for one of the switches to go to "mid" position during top operation.

Bruce :)

The dealer replaced this switch and reprogrammed everything. Picked up the car and the top worked...once, then didn't work again. Then worked again later that evening, then didn't work again. This last Saturday, my wife & I went to a party and a friend wanted a ride... so , after 141 MPH (!!!!) tried the top and it miraculously worked... and has worked since. My father said the top just needed the dust blown out!!! :glol

Guess I spoke too soon... last night I tried it and again it went down but the tonneau didn't move. Back to the dealer tomorrow (of course, it will probably work just fine tonight)...

Hopefully, the third time's a charm. This time the folding top position sensor was replaced. Will let you know if it continues to work or not...

Will somebody please show the exact locations of these sensors and describe how they can be tested and adjusted properly.

Thanks

Will somebody please show the exact locations of these sensors and describe how they can be tested and adjusted properly.

Thanks

I would think you want an XLR technician working on this! These sensors are there to make sure everything goes correctly. When something is out of 'whack' the sensors sense this and stop the process so nothing gets damaged. I don't think you want to be adjusting these yourself. Take it to the dealer and let them figure it out.

Just my opinion

Cubby558:cool

I would think you want an XLR technician working on this! These sensors are there to make sure everything goes correctly. When something is out of 'whack' the sensors sense this and stop the process so nothing gets damaged. I don't think you want to be adjusting these yourself. Take it to the dealer and let them figure it out.

Just my opinion

Cubby558:cool

:iagree :iagree :iagree
After each time that one of the sensors or switches are replaced, the entire top process has to be re-programmed and re-learned, which is best (or only) done by the dealer. In my case, it seems as though once the main top switch (in the console) went out, it caused a ripple effect and shorted out other sensors. Which, it seems, have to be replaced one at a time (and reprogrammed) to find the next shorted one.

:iagree :iagree :iagree
After each time that one of the sensors or switches are replaced, the entire top process has to be re-programmed and re-learned, which is best (or only) done by the dealer. In my case, it seems as though once the main top switch (in the console) went out, it caused a ripple effect and shorted out other sensors. Which, it seems, have to be replaced one at a time (and reprogrammed) to find the next shorted one.
Cubby is correct.

Another consideration is that you get the latest "top" software loaded down to your car. So if it is older than the current 2009's you will see some other subtle enhancements.....kinda like other software releases. One of them is that the top down process is faster in 2009.

Also, the newer switches are redesigned and seem to perform much better than the older ones. I am sure that all of this "top nptch effort" is due to the forum members expressing their concerns.

Just adding input to the decision you make.

Cubby is correct.

Another consideration is that you get the latest "top" software loaded down to your car. So if it is older than the current 2009's you will see some other subtle enhancements.....kinda like other software releases. One of them is that the top down process is faster in 2009.

Also, the newer switches are redesigned and seem to perform much better than the older ones. I am sure that all of this "top notch effort" is due to the forum members expressing their concerns.

Just adding input to the decision you make.

Does this imply that we would all benefit from having the latest software downloaded, even if we are not currently experiencing top problems?

I would say if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

As you can see it's a matter of personal opinion and preference. I would say YES!!! In my assessment it's like buying an operating system for your PC and never taking advantage of the latest and greatest enhancements that are developed.

Now that being said I don't think that Cadillac will just download software uness there is a legitimite problem that they can duplicate.

It is worth a try if you know your dealer and have good relations with them.

Regards

:) Hopefully, the third time's a charm. This time the folding top position sensor was replaced. Will let you know if it continues to work or not...

Thought I'd update you on the top problem. It seems after the last sensor (folding top position sensor) was replaced, everything is working smoothly and great!!!
Just hope it continues!!!:party :thumbs :thumbs

I am really disappointed in this technical thread. The extent of the technical knowledge transfer is very limited. In summation; Pay somebody else to do it.

sahein,
Truth be told, this is not a technical site run by techs. Yes, we have a few techs that have all the knowledge at their finger tips but they are just members like you and I and help out when they can.
Most of the self help here has been learned by the members and is not to be misconstrued that we are techs.
We have learned valuable information and we try our best to pass it on.
I think you where given some pretty good advice by some of the members.
Sorry we couldn't help.
Bobo (BB)I am really disappointed in this technical thread. The extent of the technical knowledge transfer is very limited. In summation; Pay somebody else to do it.

Sahein,

I understand your frustration in trying to get an answer to what appears to be a simple question regarding sensor locations and ways to test them. Simple questions sometimes have a way of generating unintended, complex answers. If you've ever had a child ask, "Why is the sky blue?" you know where I'm coming from.

The top's position sensors are anything but easy to understand and difficult to explain. Most of the top position sensors are not Open/Closed types of switches, but are potentiometers that operate using encoder counts generated by varying voltage outputs which are monitored via computer to determine their position compared to parameters indexed during top calibration.

If the hardware doesn't match the software, the CPU sends an interrupt, and the operation stops, enabling the dreaded, "Top Not Secure" message. Personally, I'd prefer to have it display $$$$$$$ instead; at that point, its safe to assume I already know the top isn't secure.

The level of troubleshooting, repair skills and calibration required is waaaay beyond the abilities of all but the most advanced do-it-yourselfers out there. For starters, you need a shop manual, and a $4000 Tech II scan tool. After that, good troubleshooting and repair skills. Anything less, and you are most likely to cause more harm than good where the top is concerned.

The "good old days" days of buying a Chilton's manual, chilling a six pack and opening the right drawer in a tool box to fix a car are long gone. Remember when most gas stations had auto repair bays? Now they sell munchies, and there's a good reason for that.

As cars became more complex, grease monkeys needed to evolve into computer geeks with unsmashed, opposable thumbs to keep up with the technology and as a result, high-paying, certified auto technician jobs fall mostly under the domain of the dealerships. Not all, but most of them. And unless you live in Oregon, you're probably the one pumping the gas these days.

Now for the good news: This forum is full of useful information. In spite of the complexity of these vehicles, we are still able to help each other out more often than not. Maybe you want a cut and dried answer to your question. And normally, that might be available. But the tops on these cars are quite sophisticated, combining electronics, mechanics and hydraulics, so a quick and dirty answer isn't always available.

You can easily deduce by reading the threads relating to top malfunctions that the leading cause of failures are potentiometers that have either become loose (giving incorrect encoder counts) or damaged. And with the potential for making the problem worse, it's easier to get (most of) the top work done by a dealership. At least if they adjust it wrong and crunch the top, you aren't liable!

That said, the potentiometer locations are tough to describe. --In some cases, even with the shop manual, I have a hard time determining their locations!

The Folding Top Position Switch (really a pot) looks like it's near the inside/left hinge (right behind the driver's head). The only way for me to verify this is to partially open the roof and remove the trim cover. It's on page 8-710 if you have the manual. --By the way, there are almost 300 pages devoted to the top alone! If you're prone to bouts of insomnia, this book was written especially for you.

The Folding Top Latch Position Sensor Switch is under the headliner.

The Folding Top Storage Compartment Panel Position Switch (another pot.) is located on the left Trunk lid hinge assembly.

Page 8-835 shows the location of the Folding Top Storage Compartment Closeout Panel Position Switch. It looks like its near the right rear of the trunk, but I would have to pull the carpeting out to verify this. Like I said, some of the drawings in the manual aren't very intuitive. GM doesn't make a braille version, or I would buy it. My book is for an '04. Maybe the newer books are better. Your milage may vary.

The best way we can nail a lot of these top issues is to provide feedback to the forum whenever they are resolved, citing the symtoms and fix. After awhile, we should see a pattern and can make reasonable assumptions as to the root cause of the problem before we take them in to a dealer should the repair warrant it.

Ultimately, the relevance of this forum is directly linked to the amount of factual and useful infomation we provide to our fellow members. Comraderie and information is what it's all about!

Hope this helps a little.

Peace,
CC :seeya

See Sahein..................
Be careful what you wish for. Now, did you like the last answer or the short version of going to the dealer?
Bob (BB)

Gee, aren't these going to be fun for restoration shops 25 years from now!

It is more like an adult asking a child to explain why the sky is blue. I really appreciate your effort in helping me try to understand the system. Thanks for the info.

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/users/428/sahein

Now for the next question. Are the software CD manuals any good. Do they contain all of the pages from the factory manuals?

Here's the gist of the operation of the top from the shop manual. Knowing when a fault is occuring during the cycle can help determine which component may be failing.

Folding Top Operation 101

Power Folding Top Components

The Power Folding Top consists of the following components:

1. The Folding Top Control (FTC) module

2. The pump, motor with thermistor, and five-valve manifold. The manifold valves control the: Folding Top, Front Tonneau, Header Latch,
and Deck Lid. The Rear Tonneau is controlled by the Pump Bypass Valve located on the hydraulic reservoir.

3. The hydraulic lines and cylinders.

4. The folding top Mechanics:
-- Top
-- Front tonneau
-- Rear tonneau
-- Decklid
-- Latching mechanism for the top

5. Serial Data Communication Bus

6. Position Sensors: Limit Switches
-- Luggage Cargo Cover
-- Folding Top Closed
-- Decklid Extended
-- Header Latch latched and unlatched switches

7. Position Sensors: Potentiometers
-- The Folding Top
-- Front Tonneau Sensors
-- Rear Tonneau Sensors

Folding Top Open/Close Control Switch (Console)

The FTC has two modes of operation, the folding top control and the deck lid control. The folding top is activated by the folding top control switch. The decklid is activated by the interior trunk release switch, key fob, external key, and the trunk close switch.

Through input information, the FTC module performs the following tasks:

-- Determines the state of all the moving components of the folding top system at any time during an Open or Close operation.
-- Makes corrections in the positions of the components when necessary.
-- Continues in the direction indicated by the folding top control switch.

The FTC module can stop and reverse the operation at any point when you apply the folding top control switch. To avoid an inadvertent operation of the folding top system when fully opened or closed, a .75 second delay occurs after the use of the control switch before the FTC starts the operating sequence. When you activate the system from a suspended state, the response time is less.

System Operation

Before any movement is allowed, the FTC must be aware of the following conditions:

1. The windows must be normalized.
2. The ignition must be placed in ACCY or RUN, Power mode to RUN.
3. The valet switch must be inactive.
4. The pump motor temperature must be within operating range.

The sequence for opening the top is as follows:

1. Hold the Open/Close switch in the Open Request position. The folding top
status changes to Opening.
2. A message is sent to disable the windows from operating using the door
switches.
3. The windows open using the Express Open mode.
4. The deck lid is unlatched.
5. The deck lid opens, the front tonneau opens and the header latch unlatches.
6. The top retracts to the open position and is stowed in the rear compartment.
7. The rear tonneau is extended.
8. The header latch latches securing the top and the front tonneau closes.
9. The deck lid closes.
10. The deck lid latches.
11. The top status changes from Closed to Open and a chime tone is generated.
12. The windows are enabled.

The sequence for closes the top is as follows:

1. Hold the Open/Close switch in the Close Request position. The folding top
status changes to Closing.
2. A message is sent to disable the windows from operating using the door
switches.
3. The windows open using the Express Open mode.
4. The deck lid is unlatched.
5. The deck lid opens, the front tonneau opens, and the header latch unlatches.
6. The rear tonneau retracts.
7. The top extends to the Closed position.
8. The rear tonneau remains retracted.
9. The header latch latches and the front tonneau closes.
10. The deck lid closes.
11. The deck lid latches.
12. The top status changes from Open to Closed and a chime tone is generated.
13. The windows are enabled.
14. Raise the windows using the Express Up mode by releasing and pressing the
Open/Close Control switch within five seconds of the top being secured in the
Closed position.

If a component does not reach a learned reference position, based on counts, the system will continue to drive that component until the component reaches the reference point. If the reference position is not achieved, the system will time out and will not complete the cycle. -- This is a common result of a loose or defective pot or bad switch.

Knowing how something is supposed to work is half the battle in determining what's broken! I hope this is of some use to you.

:cheers CC

I have the repair manuals on DVD and they are pretty good. I miss the convenience of having them on paper, but enjoy the relatively easy searching. They have been more than adequate for any repairs I've made. Of course, a Tech II scanner (with the Candi interface) would help, but I haven't found one cheap enough on eBay....yet!

The DVD I have covers MANY years and models of GM cars, not just the Y body cars (XLR).

:)




Thought I'd update you on the top problem. It seems after the last sensor (folding top position sensor) was replaced, everything is working smoothly and great!!!
Just hope it continues!!!:party :thumbs :thumbs.


This sounds like the problem we are having intermittently. Had it in once while on vacation but no codes were found.(120 dollar diagnostic fee) Now two months later it is back. The top opens up and stows but will not latch and rear tonnue will not extend, the pump continues to run. I located the folding top sensor pot from service manual. It is held in with one screw and I can move it slightly with my fingers. I dont know if that has anything to do with it but it is working again now. I do have GMPP but dont really want to take it in while it is working. Might try to see if I can tighten it. More to come!



Dave

Loose sensors are bad. The single screws in mine are tightened and a small bead of epoxy placed on the edge of the sensors keeps them from rotating about the screw's axis. No problemos.

If the sensors loosen up, they can give a different voltage than what the FTC module expects to read at each limit and cause the open/close cycle to stop (an XLR self-protection measure.)

Nice addition to a two-year old thread . . . Doh!

CCC :seeya

Yea...I'm good at reviving old things, have a 66 GTO that I can't stop spending money on. :nopity I think I will try to pin this sensor down as the culprit by moving it around and trying to reproduce the problem. The pump gets hot pretty quick so I am going to do it over time. If I find a happy spot I will pin it. Thanks for the input. :)