I thought that this subject needed it's own thread.

No offense to dealers here, just would like you to hear the REAL: STORY that is completely unfiltered.


MSRP.....they play games now that creates ill will and bites them in the ass later.

The best way to sell an SL for Mercedes is to screw with a customer coming in the doors of Cadillac.

Dealers should do THEIR JOB by taking orders on the xlr's and stop looking for the big score.

They are SCHMUCKS and I'll tell you EXACTLY why.

Think of all the people Cadillac dealers are pissing off playing games with the xlr. Let's say each dealer pisses off 3 people a day this year. That is 1000 customers these MORON dealers pissed off trying to make an extra $5k or $10k. Multiply that by all the caddy dealers pulling this crap and GM should be the one that stops it.

I got news for the MORON DEALERS....those 1000 guys you pissed off have a lot more buying power than you trying to make a FAST $5k on a single unit. THAT is what makes you morons by not understanding that part of the equation.

Just PROVES the shortsightedness of MOST dealers.

Webfather,

In all of your ranting and raving please keep in mind that the published retail price, i.e., window sticker, is actually the "Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price" and is called this because each dealer is an indpendent buisness. The free enterprise system well live in allows for the free marke to charge what it it bear.

While you have an agruement to some degree can you tell me that the car buying public always tells the truth. I do believe this is a two way street.

DFLXR

Ill say this Cadillac has a LONG way to go in the dealership dept. A typical MB dealer contains young salespeople who know their product inside out and are making a living working there so they stick around.

A typical Caddy dealer has a older salesperson who can tell you all about the 76 Deville but should be working at a chevy dealer.

That being said its product that drives sales and as long as they keep making cars like the XKR people will buy regardless of the dealers.

But if Caddy want to compete with BMW or MB they need to really overhall their dealers and salespeople

XLR....could not agree more!

DFXLR.....My POINT is "Make hay when the sun shines"

Why a dealer would be PROUD to have no hay is beyond me.

I don't disagree that they have the right to raise the price. My POINT is while they THINK they can make an extra $10k on ONE LOUSY CAR, their ATTITUDE costs them so much MORE.

As far as the "Car buying public telling the truth"

A. That ain't their job. It is the job of a PROFESSIONAL salesmen to draw them out and THAT is a tough thing to find at MOST dealers.

B. The BIGGEST lie a customer tells is "I am not buying today I am just looking"

If a salesmen can't see thru that then he should work at something else.

The #1 failure as I see it comes down to the following:

"When you see John Jones thru John Jones eyes, you will sell John Jones what John Jones buys"

Which brings me to a VERY funny story.

In 2001 I went to buy a new Rolls Royce. I expected to find a first rate sales pro on their floor. What I got was a very distinguished 65 year old KNOW NOTHING.

He told me how the RR seats have EVERY possible adjustmment.

When I went to move the bottom seat to make it longer he says...."Yes, that is a nice feature that Mercedes has but it is not on the Rolls.

THEN he asked me if I golf. I said no I didn't.

His response was to show me the trunk and tell me 4 sets of clubs would fit.

So now I know I am dealing with a rookie moron who does not even listen. How they could put someone like that out on the floor of a Rolls Royce/Bentley dealer is beyond me.

Salesmen need to listen FIRST.

10 minutes later I went and bought the Mercedes. Was not my intention as I put the funds in my checking account for the Rolls the day before.

btw, the Rolls has the WORST front seats in ANY car I have ever been in. They really are bad. I only hope that new Bentley they just came out with has better ones.

Webfather,

All I can say is when dealing with someone, regardless of the subject, that can not engage in open discussion of a subject that finds it necessary to use the use terms such as "moron", and alike, in every third or fouth sentense is not a person who is looking for an open, two way, conversation. I just don't have the time to deal with such an attitude.

DFXLR

Hey Webfather I think counting all your $$ over the years has gone to you head...............
Get a Life Dude!

XLR Professional Sales Executives have spent months of time eating, sleeping, breathing this Roadster and it's competition. Cadillac has gone to extreme lengths to make the XLR experience
different.

An XLR Sales Executive should just as easily be able to tell you how the SL500, SC430 and the XK8 compete with the XLR and how each feature varies from car to car. Cadillac has supplied each of their XLR dealers the tools to be able to discuss each vehicle in a very understanding way.

As for old sales people that only know 1976 Devilles I have a comment on that. A 60-70 year old Doctor has gained the respect of his patients and Colleagues after 30-40 years of perfecting his craft. The same professionalism and respect is given to most attorneys, brokers, and bankers.

As I am only 43 years old and feel I have acheived the same level of respect from those above mentioned "other" professionals. This is partially because of my 18 years at the same Cadillac dealership. Actually 7 out of 10 Professionals at our facility have been with us for more than 13 years.

The same type of respect and understanding should be given to any professional Executive regardless if they are a CEO, CFO or any seasoned businessman that has given their knowledge and professionalism for 30-40 years.

As for the comment of dealers trying to make a fast buck, their is not enough space in all the threads for me to expound upon the professions asking for outlandish fees for their services.

Regarding the XLR, I have not sold a single one in excess of MSRP. From the 8 Neiman Marcus Editions I delivered to each and every one of the regular XLR's. As it was stated earlier, The "S" of MSRP means suggested. Though I do not agree with marking up a vehicle over MSRP, each dealer has the option to raise or LOWER that amount to his or her desire. I would say 99% of the time dealers deliver vehicles for a sizeable lower amount than MSRP.

Remember Cabbage Patch Dolls or TickleMe Elmo's people were fighting in isles to pay whatever to get one. Lets not forget the AIRlines that usually raise their fares during peak travel times. Please, when was the last time you purchased Roses on Valentines Day. So please, dont cast stones without looking all around.
Thank You
Allen

With 18 years of experience Mr XLR could not tell me about the 76 Deviile only the 1986 model :)

I think all of these older expert career salesman are working for MB or BMW.

I think most peopel know what I mean that most cadillac and GM sales people are not career people vs Lexus, MB or BMW.

This is partially because of my 18 years at the same Cadillac dealership.
*************************************************

Interesting.

The FIRST thing I always ask a salesmen is how long they have been working there. You can tell a LOT about a dealer from that ONE question.

Maybe I shouldn't use morons so much but I have had this belief about dealers since 1976 when I tried to buy my first Cadillac.

I was 23 and looked 16. I started in Miami TRYING to buy a new '77 which was the first year they downsized.

I was on my way to Houston from Miami. I stopped at EVERY caddy dealer on the way TRYING to buy a new car.

To make a LONG story short.....it took mke all the way to NEW ORLEANS and Ponchtrain Cadillac before a SINGLE dealer took me seriously. They sold me the car loaded with every single option offered. And in those days.....EVERYTHING was an option.

Way too much PRE-JUDGING when you walk into a dealer.

And now we know who the dealers are....lol

Don't be so thin skinned. Maybe something I say has merit.

If you are as dealer and you think MOST dealers treat customers well.....THINK AGAIN!

NOBODY wants to be taken care of by your 90 day wonders. Give me the guy with 18 years and you'll see a pro.

Lastly.....

I know you don't want to hear "Moron"

Fair enough.

But don't let my word have you ignore the FACT that MANY if not MOST people hate car dealers.

I am just giving some reasons.

Like 2 years ago when the t-bird came out.

My wife wanted one and so I told her to call the local Ford dealer and make an appointment for the following morning and we'll go buy one.

11am the next day we went to the dealer.

The salesmen was not there and said he would be in in 20 minutes. I said I don't have the time and I need to order this car.

So they get me another salemen and the receptionist says "This is Fabian's customer can you help them"

I corrected her and told him I am no longer Fabians customer and that HE was now my salesmen.

I proceeded to say I need a yellow tbird for my wife and a blue one for me. He almost hit the floor. AND all the other sales people saw this.

So Fabian lost 2 sales cuz he can't show up on time. True story. You hear about such stuff and wonder if it is true.

Well it's true. Do you have a better word for MORON given my experience?

So fabian became the laughing stock of the delaer cuz EVERYONE knew he blew it!

I have more stories.

Why?

Cuz I have NEVER walked into a dealer without expecting to buy. Whether I did or did not has ALWAYS been soley up to the dealer.

I just don't have the time to deal with such an attitude.
************************************************

Guess what????

Most consumers would agree with me.

So why IGNORE the MAJORITY???

See THAT is the problem.

If I were in your shoes I would want to know why folks feel this way so I could fix it and SELL MORE CARS.

I am not the one with anything to gain.....YOU ARE.

Just giving HONEST feedback from a guy that buys a lot of cars.

I won't call you a moron....but you would be foolish to ignore my thoughts because I can give you example after example.

Mercedes dealer vs Cadillac

The #1 difference is APPROACH.

Caddy approaches me like I am buying one car in my lifetime and that is it. They can't see further than that cuz MOST salesmen are there for short terms so there is NEVER any real follow up.

On the otherhand Mercedes has always approached it like you were going to buy cars on a periodic basis for a lifetime and they treat you like that.

The result....Brand loyalty and more sales.

Obviously some caddy dealers employ the better startegy as well. But that is NOT THE STANDARD and it should be.

Even Caddy dealers must be able to see the HUGE variation in how some caddy dealers do business.

Just food for thought guys so please don't get defensive.

It's an observation.

Webfather:
Thank you for understanding my position, just because a few people have had bad experiences with a dealer or a few dealers does not make the common situation in the marketplace.

Below is the 2003 JD. Powers Consumer sales satisfaction results for automotive retail ranking. I dont always agree with what Powers says but this is you! the retail public speaking their mind. I have also included a link to the actual press release.

"Cadillac ranks highest in sales satisfaction in 2003, improving eight index points over 2002. Cadillac performs consistently well across all measures of satisfaction, which include the dealership facility, working with the salesperson, paperwork/financing process, delivery process and vehicle price".

[URL=http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=763]

Thank You
Allen Kulbersh
Steve Foley Cadillac XLR

MR XLR....

KUDOS!!

That was the right way to address my posts.

I guess a dealer is only as good as the sales person that takes care of you.

It's a pleasure to deal with pros and equally upsetting when dealing with rookies.

:glol

It seems that every consumer has an issue with a salesperson, whether they sell cars, appliances or other things. I think the point he is trying to make is that when we walk in a dealership, first respect that we are there to purchase a vehicle. We are not meat or bait for salespersons to catch and make a fast buck. I commend Steve Foley for selling the XLR at MSRP. The bottom line is those who sell at MSRP are thinking in the long run. Service first, money later. Who knows? People who purchase that XLR may have a daughter or son they want to purchase a CTS for and that is where repeat business will make you a money maker.

I have said many times that there needs to be a stricter system to hold some salespersons accountable for their misguided ethics. Consumers are not the prey and should be treated with the upmost respect. We're not dumb and we know when someone is pulling one over on us. At least I am. The car buying experience is not what it use to be for Cadillac. This is one of the many reasons brands such as Lexus and Mercedes-Benz have been able to move into the territory that Cadillac laid foundation for. Not all of them are bad and there are salesmen that I absolutely adore. Hats off to them! Hades for the others!:mad

The car buying experience is not what it use to be for Cadillac. This is one of the many reasons brands such as Lexus and Mercedes-Benz have been able to move into the territory that Cadillac laid foundation for. Not all of them are bad and there are salesmen that I absolutely adore. Hats off to them! Hades for the others!
************************************************** *

Dealers....are you listening?

We are SHARING our experience.

And we are not talking out of our rear ends because we ARE customers.

Sorry if some think that it is a waste of time.

You will NEVER get such HONEST feedback from auctual customers that have purchased YOUR product.

I would re-read lady_phoenix post MANY times cuz she is DEAD ON!!

Who really cares about a 76 Deville???
I wasn't even old enough to drive then!
I want a professional who knows everything there is to know about the car I'm buying and the selling points vs. the competing models, and Experience does not always mean Professional.

As Cadillac is trying to appeal to a younger demographic with their vehicles, It would be helpful to take a look at the sales
staff as well

I'm of the opinion that any product should be sold for maximum profit, business is business, and higher prices help keep the value of my vehicle up. But anyone spending 76K+ for a vehicle and not shopping the market for the best price...........
might well be considered the moron.

Wow, you must have had a bad experience to be so hostile towards car dealers.
It doesn't matter what you are selling (real estate, cars, or ANYTHING), prices are driven by supply and demand. It's real simple. If houses in my neighborhood are selling for 1.5 million, should I list my comparable house at 1 mil ??? Now that would be the act of a true moron!
And what about the people out there (private parties) that buy hot items (XLRs included) and list them on ebay for way more than they paid? Are these guys morones too?
You're probably one of those people that think car dealers have 20-40% margins at MSRP.
This is free enterprize...as a consumer all you can do is be an educated buyer, negotiate the best deal you can, and either buy it or walk away!

Well let me ask this.....

Is a dealer better off selling ONE xlr and making an extra $5K or $10k or is he smarter to keep that one on the floor and take orders for others?

Now I am sure the first thing you will hit me with is a limited production, but does that mean you can't take orders for 2005?

Obviously even dealers themselves have mixed emotions. Some dealers would NEVER go above sticker as indicated in this forum.

And as a CONSUMER who do you think we should respect more?

As a CONSUMER when you KNOW some dealers are selling for MSRP what does it say about those that don't?

I paid over sticker and I have no regrets and I would do it again. I decided I wanted it and a few grand wasn't that important to me.....but that is just me. However that is not the point of the post.

The point is are dealers shooting themselves in the foot in the long run for a few grand in the short term??

I just have to comment on this.

It is true that every business has top-notch and bottom of the barrell performers. And I do mean every business.

The XLR is truly a niche market vehicle. Virtually every person who sees one, wants one. The truth is, most cannot afford one.

Mr XLR's comments speak to his and his dealership's professionalism. While I have not had any dealings with them, I can assure you that he and the store are held in high esteem by the Cadillac brand, and GM. His perspective is that of a professional employed by a dealer with an excellent reputation.

Just as one would look for a doctor's board certifications, an attorney's law degrees and professional affiliations, etc. I would think that the customer would choose a business(dealer) with similar credentials. The first question I would ask a Cadillac dealer is whether they are a SFE dealer. The acronym means Standards for Excellence. Mr. XLR works for one.

To all:

I would suggest that all those who have been listening ot Webfather visit his website. It is the absolute site of truth and justice or should I say visit and make your own conclusion. I rest my case with the guy who uses moron in nearly every sentense.

As for the 1st Amendment as was stated earlier there is also on the books slander, which brings a big price.

I would just suggest that all of you should keep in mind that just opposite the FIRST AMENDMENT is SLANDER not to mention Bias. Also, I would like to you keep in mind that I am not an attorney, I am just someone who has seen the light. And Webfather has not, while he very well may have a good argument with a dealer or two he does not have, at least to my knowledge, to make a global statement. Thus my cause not to give cause for the free marke to sue the heck out of those who are attempting to ban a free enterprize without due representation.

i.e., We have long since left linching behind us. Thank God!

Again, I am not an attorney, just a very educated vitcum of our system.

DFXLR

To Shari:
Welcome to the forum as a new member. Thank you for your kind words from someone I have never had the pleasure to know until now.

I have always based my business on being straight forward and keeping my clients updated with true and factual information. I feel seeling an XLR or any vehicle for over MSRP may get you the quick 5k-10k (webfather) but do you have a client? a relationship to base 18+ years on? and usually a friend? in most cases the answer will always be NO!

Thank you
Allen Kulbersh
www.Cadillac-XLR.com (http://)

Steve Foley Cadillac XLR

No problem, while we have not had contact. As the employee of another SFE dealer, I am fully aware of the reputation you and your store have. Not apple-polishing, just the impression you have left on folks I have contact with.

It is a shame there are customers who have been left with the dealer impressions posted above, but not every dealer or salesperson deserves to be painted with the tar and chicken feathers.

Time will tell on the pricing issues, but I think the dealers who stick to MSRP may have customers who are forced by production to wait longer, but will have the confidence and trust in the relationship to continue doing business and offer their recommendation to friends.

Slander????

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Did I mention a SINGLE NAME??

You are no attorney so STOP acting like one!

If you don't like what I am saying....don't read it.

If the post was so over the top, it would be pulled.

YOU can't seem to get past my initial "Provocotive" post.....but have you even read my respnoses or do you just want to shut me up?

btw....are YOU a dealer??

DFXLR

It is interesting that instead of debating a single POINT I have made all you want to do is get personal with ME.

The thread starter was provocative and GENERAL in nature. It pointed the finger at nobody specific. It is an OPINION. Maybe where you come from OPINIONS are not allowed.

Are you going to tell me that there are NO dealers out there that are morons.....and MUCH worse??

Moron....."a very stupid person"

In this case....stupid DEALERS.

But this is the first post I have used moron in since my initial one....

SO GET OVER IT ALREAEDY!

You want to defend a specific dealer.....fine and dandy......but I did not point at a single one. I used the word "MOST". Maybe I should have used the word "MANY".

Meanwhile I was talking NUMBERS and whether doing what they do is actually in their best interest. Let's stay on THAT pointy and move on. ;-)

Webfather,

I am not a dealer, but I do work for one.

I am not accusing you of slander, I find the treatment you have report unconscionable. If a customer was treated that way by an employee of our dealership, the door would be shown to them. I am not trying to trash you personally.

I do agree with you that the most powerful vote is delivered with a checkbook. I do not dispute that there are dealers who are less desirable to work with. However, there are dealers who recognize their customer as the reason for their existence, and who do work hard to maintain lifetime relationships. Those are the dealers who have customers bringing their friends and family to "their" dealer to make sure they get the same attention. As you have previously stated in several posts, you prefer to business over the internet or telephone. My reference to another member of this board is due to recommendations from his customers on this and other boards, as well as from industry contacts the customer would not have. No offense intended.

As to the pricing issue, many Cadillac dealers do not like the over msrp either. Cadillac does not like it, customers do not like it, but with the laws the way they are, they cannot legally prevent it.

You are entitled to you opinion about any and all dealers. I was merely making a point that there are professional dealers out there and that one who is an active member of this board is recognized as the sort you seek not only by his customer, but other dealers also. Not all dealers seek to trash each other.

We are seeing the same situation with the V-series CTS. We do not like it either, and that is why we are selling as many out of state as we are in. While this car is not in the price point of the XLR, it is as low volume, with comparable unmet demand, with dealers doing the same markup. I would like to see the allocation of the XLR go the way this one has, so that dealers who sit on the car to sell to the highest bidder, the allocation goes to dealers selling them. I believe this would stop a great deal of what you rightly object to on the price issue.

I find the treatment you have report unconscionable. If a customer was treated that way by an employee of our dealership, the door would be shown to them. I am not trying to trash you personally.
************************************************

Hi Sheri,

I have not taken your posts personally at all and I thank you for your comments.

The REASON I buy my cars now over the phone and the internet is DIRECTLY RELATED to the level of service I get when I walk into the door of ANY DEALER and ANY BRAND.

The car buying experience is about the WORST one can have. That's too bad cuz I really used to get excited about going into a dealer and buy a new car. Now I would rather go to the dentist.

Thanks for recognizing that there are different levels of dealers out there. Dealers that don't recognize that ARE the ones I am talking to and about.

Before the net we were basically STUCK with whoever the local dealer was. Now you can actually CHOOSE and for the first time a consumer can compare dealers.

One thing is for sure, the next car I buy I will find a forum FIRST and then locate GREAT dealers like the one you work for.

Thanks for taking your time to respond!

My main point was that a dealer would end up making more PROFIT and have more CUSTOMERS without trying to add to the MSRP.

Let me see how I can word this....

Sheri, did your dealer make more than $10k selling many xlr's at MSRP and getting several new customers as opposed to trying to make the quick buck on a single unit?

My belief is the answer is YES and that would be the point I was making.

I hope your future experiences do not disappoint you. Checking the forums is actually a great way to get a feel for the kind of dealer you are looking for. That is what I was referring to in the reference checking department. Trying to choose words with space limitation in mind. Since you are not (I assume) happy with your local dealer, based on your experience, the word-of -mouth referral you get from one-on-one contact is most closely duplicated on the boards with individuals seriously interested in the vehicles. From what I have followed for months, board members are honest about the experiences they have had-good,bad, and awful. On this board, the customers who have had good experiences seem to want to share their experience also. This is just an extension of bringing "friends" to "their" dealer. Generally a great "real-world" reference check.

Ours are MSRP only. First year build allocation was reserved by current customers a year before we had firm build date, so our problem has been that we have a wait list much longer than our allocation. We have had customers become angry because ours were all spoken for so early. The over-msrp issue has driven the price of the used ones trickling into the market over msrp even to the dealer. The two used ones we got the dealership had to pay over sticker for, for cars with 300 miles on it, and 6500 miles.

We do not like the situation, but are held as captive by the new vehicle supply chain, and prices the used ones are bringing as the retail customer is.

I have heard that the dealerships that have been authorized to sell the XLR will have to take in the end, if you understand my meaning. The launch of the XLR was as important as the air we breathe to Cadillac. Every complaint that has been made to Cadillac concerning a dealer and the pricing thing is probably now sitting in the office of 'The Don' (what I call Mark LeNeve). I think that of course there are no legal ramifications that can be taken, but how about allocation? I bet you the dealerships that are selling these vehicle outrageously over MSRP didn't think of that.

I used to talk to a dealer once and he told me that GM put some dealerships our of business becuase they began reducing allocation of all the brands they carried, gradually. I think the XLR game is going to be played the same way. My advice to those who want to make a quick buck: play nice or Caddy won't.:glol :glol :glol :glol :glol :glol :glol:glol :glol :glol

In a lot of ways I agree with Webfather. I may not be as abrupt in some of the opinions (or name calling), but we have all had bad experiences buying a car (or two).

I'll relate one of them...My first car that *I* bought was a new 1987 Cadillac Cimarron. Now the first thing you should ask is "Why would anyone buy a glorified Chevy?" and I have no defense for that. But, I was young and an inexperienced car buyer. So much so that I picked up the Cimarron at night from the dealer.

When I looked at the car the next morning in sunlight, the paint across the hood and lower panels had streaks running through the paint. It took four months before the problem was resolved. It wasn't the dealer that finally provided the solution, it was Cadillac that bought back the car and provided a new car. That dealer is no longer in business but I still remember that experience painfully.

The good part is that Cadillac in my eyes came out looking great since they did step up to the plate. In some strange way that experience 17 years ago (gasp!) made it easier to buy the XLR. But, I never shopped at that dealership again.

My favorite quote was from the GM at the former dealership who said, "It will be a cold day in hell before we take your car back". I guess it got very cold in April 1987.

Over the years I've learned to look for a good dealer and do my homework prior to exchanging money. David Taylor was the fourth Cadillac dealer I went to looking for the XLR. They were easily above the rest. So, the good dealers are out there and the bad ones just don't get my business.

I've also learned to never pick up a car at night...:lol

Sheri,

Welcome to the Forum, your input is a breath of fresh air especially in light o the orger.

In a previous response I told Webfather that I will not give such a outward negative person my time of day in that I have better things to do with my time.

The one thing I have learned is that you can not change people if they as so convicted and one needs to move on. It's to bad that he can not see how other view him.

Again, Welcome Aboard,


DFXLR

Thanks for the welcome!

Regarding Webfather's posts, he has a right to express his thoughts just as we all do. Sadly, he is not the only person to have that sort of experience. My point of view is that there are stores and sales consultants who are of the quality he desires. I wish there were more of them.

My point, and I believe he would not disagree, that in the selection and purchase of a vehicle, seeking references is a good beginning point. Great dealers and sales consultants will be as highly recommended as great lawyers, doctors, financial advisors, etc. I think this is especially true in the high-end and specialty brands. The customer has the right to expect courteous and professional treatment from the businesses he or she patronizes, whatever they may be. I like Jeff Gitomer's take( Customer satisfaction is worthless, Customer loyalty is priceless). While I would argue the satisfaction being worthless, he makes some very good points.

Customers are not alone in the frustration over the MSRP plus tactics. This situation makes it difficult for dealers who refuse to play the game because these cars are sitting unsold, when there are so many customers on dealer waitlists who would be driving this fantastic car if the dealers who are selling them could get the cars that they need to meet their customer demand.

Regarding my comments about Alan, the store I work for is not in the same state, but word does get around, and the words that get around regarding him and his store are good. This from the customer standpoint, as well as from industry sources.

If nothing else, the internet forums add another block to the neighborhood. From what I have seen on this and other boards, there are as many positive recommendations as there are buyer beware warnings. Very powerful, I think.

Just a final thought, since I am wandering mentally:

You would never breed a thoroughbred without carefully researching the stud's pedigree, you look for good bloodlines, stamina, confirmation, heart, and the desire to run. Maybe some of these traits(translated to accomodate the difference in species) should be more highly prized in the industry. No broken down nag has ever won the Triple Crown.

the orger???

So who is the name caller now??

DFXLR....seems you just keep reading my first post over and over and over and have not read anything else I have posted.

You have not answered a SINGLE point I have made nor others. Wish I was PERFECT just like you.

You think dealers are all angels? That makes you a FOOL.

You think someone can't share their actual dealer experinces in a forum? That makes you a FOOL.

You think that you can't express an opinion. THAT makes you a BIG FOOL.

And I am NOT calling you a moron. I am calling you a FOOL and below is the definition so you don't get your panties all tied in knots like you have the last few days.

Some fools can't READ and make it personal.

Fool....."one lacking in common powers of understanding"

Now you'll probably want to sue me???

What an unfortunate waste of time and energy!

Can't you just GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY and DROP IT and MOVE ON????? Really sir....what is the point of YOUR ranting against ME?????

I apologize to everyone here for this. Not my intention. My original post was GENERAL in nature and to hear other experiences from consumers and dealers. I NEVER thought there would be a personal attack for trying to discuss an issue.

How VERY sad that is happening in THIS forum.

How about a truce and we call this a dead thread?

That would be fine with me.

:party

Sheri,

I totally agree with eveything you said in your last posting. You have a very good perspective and express it very well.

DFXLR

In light of the topic here, it is relevant to direct you to the link http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2682532,00.html

which relates the abominable actions of a Cadillac dealer. A sad, but true, tale of an elderly woman (who was caregiver to her sick husband with dementia) buying a new Cadillac is told--and these customers have been loyal Cadillac buyers for over three decades. This dealer ripped them off repeatedly, first in a selling them a CTS, then a DeVille and then a Seville--all within a matter of days!

Hopefully, some 'pit bull' of an attorney will volunteer to represent these victims in an action for fraud, distress and other causes of action, against all parties involved.

Because of incidents like these, the time is coming when cars will be sold with set sticker prices, effectively removing any "haggling" associated with car buying, and that will lead to the demise of dealers such as this one. The denials by the management of this dealership, then the faint attempt to create goodwill, shows the audacity of these greedy people. At the very minimun, General Motors should remove any "Authorized" dealer designation.

Luckily, there are good Cadillac dealers out there, and we Cadillac enthusiasts must find and support them. My dealership in Pennsylvania has been selling Cadillacs since 1938, and due to positive sales and service experiences for many years (my parents have bought Cadillacs there since the sixties), I knew to buy my Cadillac from them, too.

MY THREE CENTS WORTH:

I have been handled in similiar ways at several dealers over the years --BMW,Cadillac, Mercedes and Porche.

PERCEPTIONS CAN BE DECIEVING-- I find it interesting to go into a dealership wearing casual clothing and see how you are treated. In most cases, the guy who is "up" will convince the rookie sales person to come see what you want.

In addition to my case, I am aware of 3 situations where this back fired as Web Fater pointed out. One situation was a construction worker who stopped at a Cadillac dealer in his shorts and consturction boots. He got out of a 4 wheel Jimmy" loaded with mud. Before he was done, the "rookie made 2 sales shocking the guy who was supposed to be "up".

2. A retired Ford Motor executive took his wife inot a local Mercedes dealership to buy her a 500SL. He and she were wearing shorts and casual shirts. He ended up leaving due to the snubbing and rude behavior of the floor personnel. In the end he bought a Jaguar converible again.

3. I rode a Harley inot the Cadillac dealership and was totally ignored. Of course I wouldn't let it go so I walked inot the new car sales managers office iand interrupted his meeting. Of course I let him know what was on my mind about his staff behavior.

In the end I bought the car from him directly and we are fast friends.

So IF the dealers are listening they can learn not to prejudge and they may make more sales and retain more customers.

I am of the opinion that the service lane personnel need to be upgraded too. I am tired of beingf trated like I am going to cheat them out of a bolt or tell them a lie about some imperfection that on the car.

My most recent incidents believe it or not had to do with the XLR AFTER the new car sales manager too me to the service manager and said he didn't want anyone else writing tickets on the XLR but him. So when I came in a wekk later to report the center air dam had been torn somehow --may in unloading or tie down I was met with "That's impossible"!! "Do you know how many inspections these cars go through"? My reply was yes do you? so he was insiting that I did the damage and that I should pay for the replacement. My resonse was get the part in and we'll se who pays for it. It was fixed the next week. (A $200 part at most). The installer did a crappy job of installing it so I fixed it myself.

So we all have a job to do to educate each other and share experiences so that things will get better over time.



Regards.

There are dealer employees who watch this forum, and many of the points made are valid. This is just a suggestion, but maybe e-mailing a link to this thread or the entire forum to them might help. It might provide a mirror to look into, so to speak.

Sheri,

I started this thread just for the reason you stated.

Once dealers hear REALITY......Maybe.....just maybe THEY will learn about THEIR customers and just as importantly the ones they FORCED to go to another dealer or product.

This thread will become the #1 all time thread here because it is true and so widespread. It won't go away and the stories will be told over and over again each with a slightly different slant.

My stories are mild compared to what goes on out there based on what others are posting.

Do dealers expect you to put on a tuxedo to buy their car. Is THAT what it takes to be taken seriously?? I just don't know another word in the english language to describe that type behavior.

:nono

Webfather,

I seriously doubt that the dealers who consider that they do justified will hear our plight. But those that don't turn a blind eye will take all of what was said into consideration. I think hell will have to freeze over for all the rest of them to develop ethics. Training just ain't gettin' it!

I guess that's why I am reluctant to purchase at this time. I get scared of all the slime and rotten smells I hear of the hunters who consider me game to hunt. After all, I am a woman. But an educated one at that. Don't they know a smart woman when they see one? Of course not because all I am is dollar signs.

As an XLR dealer I will totally agree with a lot that has been said recently here. I have heard so many stories over the years that it does not make sense to me.

First regarding a woman walking in alone:

Most Sales Executives know the simple fact that 80% of a buying decision will go to the woman. If a couple walks in together the focus MUST be given to each individual, regardless whom the vehicle is for. Paying special attention that you are focusing on the womans concerns.

Some sales people dont understand the simple fact that if the woman is against the vehicle, the color or a feature they most likely will not get it. To be condescending to a woman is stupid and foolish. Corporations including GM have A great percentage of woman as senior executives.

The Product/Marketing manager for the XLR is a Woman. The Marketing manager for the 2005 STS is a woman. The product Analyst for both vehicles is a woman. Look at what is going on with the XLR, I feel they have hit the mark!

Regardless if it is an Attorney, Physician or Banker with a poor personality traits that can be a huge turnoff. Yes, there are still some Neanderthals out their in all personal one on one related business. That is why it is so important for a perspective purchaser to check out the dealers CSI Customer Satisfaction Index and other areas such as the length of tenure of their sales people, as you would do by receiving referrals to other professionals.

One area that I feel would serve an individual that walks into a Cadillac dealer to ask for the XLR Specialist. He/she has gone through extensive training to know this vehicle inside and out. The XLR Experience for these elite sales execs is the most intensive sales related program Cadillac has ever instituted. I wont get into the service training as I could fill up 5 pages.

Regarding individuals wearing casual clothes:

I have to say our dealership is also a Bentely, Rolls Royce facility. The vast majority of our clients walk in wearing Jeans or relaxed clothes not suits. A great percentage of individuals that can afford any luxury vehicle can come and go as they please. They may simply take the afternoon or day off to stop bye to look at a vehicle in their casual attire.

To judge a book by it's cover is bad business

Allen Kulbersh
Steve Foley Cadillac XLR

www.Cadillac-XLR.com (http://)

Mr. XLR-
I agree with your thoughts. I made the suggestion to the people who were not happy to make the dealers aware. I think it may be constructive to stores who want to improve, and if they are blissfully unaware, they can't begin the process to fix the problem.

I have had conversation with several of the women you mentioned, and I have to agree with you. Any person in the automotive industry should realize that women wield a great deal of influence in automible purchasing, and if they do not, they do need to be made aware.

If there are as many unhappy customers out there, it might make some dealers re-evaluate what they are doing, and make improvements.

It sounds like your manner of handling customers is not what every Cadillac customer is seeing, when they should be. If the dealers read this forum, they will see a good snapshot of the real-world customer's feelings(and some excellent examples of the type of referral they would like to have being directed their way)

The reason dealers across the country should ALL be reading this is we have NO AGENDA.

We are CURRENT Cadillac customers just sharing experiences we have had. Good, bad, and ugly.

If they want to improve the way they handle customers and close more sales they will take the time to understand what is being posted.

I don't care either way. It does not affect my income. Does not affect my livelyhood.

But dealers....we are doing you a favor by giving you feedback you would otherwise not get. What you do with the info is solely up to you.

And believe me, the stories are FAR from over.

Originally posted by sheri
Mr. XLR-
I agree with your thoughts. I made the suggestion to the people who were not happy to make the dealers aware. I think it may be constructive to stores who want to improve, and if they are blissfully unaware, they can't begin the process to fix the problem.

I have had conversation with several of the women you mentioned, and I have to agree with you. Any person in the automotive industry should realize that women wield a great deal of influence in automible purchasing, and if they do not, they do need to be made aware.

If there are as many unhappy customers out there, it might make some dealers re-evaluate what they are doing, and make improvements.

It sounds like your manner of handling customers is not what every Cadillac customer is seeing, when they should be. If the dealers read this forum, they will see a good snapshot of the real-world customer's feelings(and some excellent examples of the type of referral they would like to have being directed their way)

I'm sorry Sheri, but I think those of them that hear it and don't want to improve, well I think should lose the franchise. But we all know how that works out. I think all Cadillac dealerships should be held accountable for their ethics. Come on, how many times do you think it is ethical for a dealer to tell someone to go ask GM for a private offer the dealer knows the customer can't have. Stop being a wuss and tell us the truth!:banghead

I do not follow on the dealer telling customer to ask for a private offer they know they cannot have. What are you referring to?

I realize that each dealer has the opportunity to run their store as they see fit. There are limits placed on them by the sales and service agreement with the manufacturer, but there are also many state dealer protection laws also.

I just think it would be interesting and possibly helpful for the dealers to see what the "real" world thinks. A happy customer will tell a few people, an unhappy customer will tell everyone. You have to admit that this forum is a far-reaching "everyone".

GM has sent letters and messages regarding the pricing over MSRP complaints to dealers, but the state dealer protection laws in many states protect a dealers right to charge what he pleases. How important this is will vary by dealer. My suggestion was for those who were not happy to "hold up a mirror" to the store they were dissatisfied with.

Regarding the dealer ethics and losing franchises, again, the state laws make it difficult for the manufacturer to do. In this regard the customer has the greater ability to do this. In the car business, the customer is the jury and they vote with their checkbook. A store that is not selling cars will have a difficult time staying in business.

Hi Folks,

Sheri makes a very good point in that a franchise is an independent buisness, i.e., the reason for Suggestion Retail Price. Given this, each franchise is subject to the better business folks of the state in which it exists. While there are franchise rules to pay attention to the buisness regulation is subject to state by state law.

The liberal side of the fence would love to have the government look out for everyone. The conservative side would leave it to the buyer-beware side.

However, the buyer-beware, does include a saftey net for those that got nailed by the bad guys.

It would be great in the free enterprise system that we can cover everyone on every transaction. However, that would paramont to total socialism, and do we really want to go there?

DFXLR