I guess they won't be building any XLRs today at Bowling Green with the plant on strike.

I'm very sorry to say, but there probably isn't a shortage.

Floyd

Isn't that just like the union, get your people on strike in a plant where production being down is a good thing and that even includes Vetts! :banghead
Jim

From a strategic standpoint, not the UAW's best move. Inventories are high, public support for their cause is low. Really low, quite frankly.

Too bad for GM, the UAW is dragging them down that slippery slope yet again.

I support GM management's attempts to right the ship, yet the rank and file allow their misguided, greedy, union representatives, to keep taking on water.

When will these UAW union members realize that their ranks are dwindling due to their unrealistic demands for salary and benefits that can no longer be supported?

When Honda and Toyota, Acuram Hyndai etc. have a $30.00 per hour lower wage/benefit advantage over our UAW packages, it's not a mystery that we have to make some changes.

Perhaps GM has to move all their assembly plants off to China/Mexico/Japan/Korea, like so many other manufacturers have had to do......... Of course, we would want the XLR & Corvette plant to be the very last to go ......... :-)

Las Vegas Dave

Don't get me started on Unions, which I have been a IBEW member for blankety blank years. Back in the early 1900's people where paid nothing for a days wage, yes they take there share but have brought people up to a decent standard of living. Case in point my V which I have the pink slip on. People in California can't live on minimum wage or ever own a new car or a condo unless they have a union job.
BobIsn't that just like the union, get your people on strike in a plant where production being down is a good thing and that even includes Vetts! :banghead
Jim

Let's get side tracked here about how much $'s the CEO's make!! Even when they get fired!! I think that's unfair!!

Where is it written that because you are a worker in a company, you have a 'right' to demand anything? After all, any worker is free to leave their job if they don't like the wage scale paid, or, the working conditions. Why have unions been allowed to dictate that workers are paid up to full salary for years after being laid off? What sense does that make?

Unions leaders have benefited greatly on the backs of the union members. When they promote a strike, their salaries (talk about bloated compensation), continue while the poor union worker pickets and is given a few hundred bucks a week.

If this GM strike is long lived, I fear that thousands more union workers will have been victimized by the poor choices made by their union leaders. It cannot be said that the GM CEOs are to blame for the unions incompetence.

Las Vegas Dave

I'm not a big fan of unions, although when I was a teacher, I was forced to be in one. I don't understand why anyone should be guaranteed a job. I also heard on the news tonight that it costs GM $1500/car just to pay for the medical policies of the employees.

I've worked for the same company for over 15 years, and as long as I put in the amount of work that my boss feels I need to do, I have a job - no guarantee from day to day. If they want to terminate me, they can do it at a moments notice. On the other hand, if I don't like it, I can go elsewhere.

If the workers at GM think they can get a better deal elsewhere, then by all means - they should go for it. I'll bet that there wouldn't be any problem replacing them - and that goes for the GM management as well

Let's get side tracked here about how much $'s the CEO's make!! Even when they get fired!! I think that's unfair!!

Not me, I love it! :thumbs One mans vision can lead an entire company with thousands of employees to be either a highly profitable entity, or a broke-ass shell of its former self.

Good CEO's are worth their weight in gold, bad ones take their weight in gold and move on to never be seen again.

Too bad for GM, the UAW is dragging them down that slippery slope yet again.

I support GM management's attempts to right the ship, yet the rank and file allow their misguided, greedy, union representatives, to keep taking on water.

When will these UAW union members realize that their ranks are dwindling due to their unrealistic demands for salary and benefits that can no longer be supported?

When Honda and Toyota, Acuram Hyndai etc. have a $30.00 per hour lower wage/benefit advantage over our UAW packages, it's not a mystery that we have to make some changes.

Perhaps GM has to move all their assembly plants off to China/Mexico/Japan/Korea, like so many other manufacturers have had to do......... Of course, we would want the XLR & Corvette plant to be the very last to go ......... :-)

Las Vegas Dave

They can move the Corvette/XLR plant to Rocky Point Mexico. Three hour drive and I have the plant, beaches, 50 cent tacos and one dollar beers. Plus my cell phone still works. What more could I ask for :reddevil

Ah, Tendre una cerveza fría de pacifico por favor.

Nothin like a cold, Pacifico and a fish taco.:thumbs

It's okay with me if they move to Mexico, most of their parts come from there anyway. :glol

Kent,
And you want your next XLR/Corvette made by cheap Mexican labor? Good Luck!They can move the Corvette/XLR plant to Rocky Point Mexico. Three hour drive and I have the plant, beaches, 50 cent tacos and one dollar beers. Plus my cell phone still works. What more could I ask for :reddevil

UAW = Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.

The figures include vacations, paid personal days off and medical leave, but the most crippling problem is employees who just skip work. Managers must scramble to find hundreds of replacements from pools of fill-in workers to perform tasks for which they may not be trained.

... Automakers and many UAW workers say there is no excuse for high absenteeism. Line workers receive up to five weeks of vacation and 17 paid holidays. When plants are idled for retooling or slow sales, workers also collect pay. "Sick days" are not provided and are supposed to come out of vacation time unless it?s a prolonged illness that requires a leave.

Japanese Employed Auto Workers = Honda Motor Co.?s Ohio plants offer bonuses of up to $2,600 annually, but workers who do not maintain a 98 percent attendance rate are put into counseling programs. Toyota Motor Co.?s Georgetown, Ky., plant conducts drawings for employees with perfect attendance. The prizes: free vehicles.

Just food for thought -- when those absent workers are replaced on the line, not only do you get an employee not trained for the task they are performing, they are earning overtime pay. So, you are not only paying the bum who stayed home, you are paying his replacement; time and a half. Makes you wonder what the price of a car would be if they would just earn the salaries they collect?

Having been around the car business for years, I have seen lots of changes. The three domestics, as we are all aware, are having major problems, and have been for years. Over the years, I watched as they cut back on the gifts, trips & monies given to the dealers. I watched Ford Credit close offices all over the United States, and watched as they laid off thousands of employees, but the problems still continue. I don't know if it is the unions, quality control, or they just don't care, but as I visit my Cadillac dealer, from the day I picked up Passion Diva, and the several times she has been back(including today) they make me feel like they are doing me a favor by helping me. Where is their Customer Service?? Everytime I pick her up, she is dirty. Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, and even Toyota make sure you car is clean when you pick is up.

Okay, I am rambling, my questions is, as GM (the largest domestic) is being passed by Toyota in vehicle sales in the US, don't you think GM should be more concerned with this instead of striking???? :banghead :banghead

Gee Mark,,,, I wish I was a healthy as you. Sounds like you've never been sick. never in a hospital, no accidents, must always make it into work? Never a "personal time off". Must've never had a son or daugther sick, or parent. Parents must be alive because it sounds like you've never taken any time for funeral, parent son daugther or whoever to pay respects to. What about a birth of a son or daughter? (one of the GREATEST things that has ever happened to me) any time off there?

Sick leaves and personal time off are for a reason! Granted 10% is high. But I wouldn't change any of the times that I took off from work!

By the way,,,,, I had good attendance at where I worked, a 5 year award for great attendance.

Gee Mark,,,, I wish I was a healthy as you. Sounds like you've never been sick. never in a hospital, no accidents, must always make it into work? Never a "personal time off". Must've never had a son or daugther sick, or parent. Parents must be alive because it sounds like you've never taken any time for funeral, parent son daugther or whoever to pay respects to.

Sick leaves and personal time off are for a reason! Granted 10% is high. But I wouldn't change any of the times that I took off from work!

By the way,,,,, I had good attendance at where I worked, a 5 year award for great attendance.


Sounds to me like you must have worked in a plant for at least one of the three domestics. Am I right?????

Gee Mark,,,, I wish I was a healthy as you. Sounds like you've never been sick. never in a hospital, no accidents, must always make it into work? Never a "personal time off". Must've never had a son or daugther sick, or parent. Parents must be alive because it sounds like you've never taken any time for funeral, parent son daugther or whoever to pay respects to.

Sick leaves and personal time off are for a reason! Granted 10% is high. But I wouldn't change any of the times that I took off from work!

By the way,,,,, I had good attendance at where I worked, a 5 year award for great attendance.


Uh, okay...............Let's try not to personalize; both my parents have passed. I took one day for dad's funeral, one for my mom. I am entitled to bereavement leave, however I didn't feel the need to take more than what I did.

And yes, I am healthy, never been hospitilized, nor have I taken time off work to babysit my kids when they had the sniffles. (Doris and I have four children and four grandkids). In my previous career, I was involved in two on-duty shooting incidents, but refused to sit home and feel sorry for myself or the bad guys who made really poor choices including not spending enough time at the range................:reddevil

I always maximize my vacation time, negotiating for as much as I can get my hands on. I am now in my 11th year with the company, with perfect attendance other than two bereavement days. But that's me, not everyone is intrinsically motivated.

Since you agree 10% absenteeism is high, what is your response to 20%, which is the rule, not the exception? Bottom line, we are not talking about my life, we are discussing the auto industry employees who have plenty of income, plenty of time off and pleny of benefits, rightfully so.

Their bargaining units negotiated for benefits and management can plan for their usage. The problem is the unplanned time off; the "personal days" masked as sick calls that management cannot plan for. The company ends up paying the healthy employee to sit home, while also compensating another employee to fill the hole in the line at time and a half. And this occurs every day, in every plant around the clock. Couple that with the high Workers Comp fraud rate and abuse of the FMLA system and you have a recipe for disaster.

The company tries to pass this all on to the consumer, but more importantly, the behavior spawns boardroom strategy sessions concerning their inability to compete in a global market, and how outsourcing jobs will provide the much needed relief they seek.

The unions response? Strike in an attempt to leverage the company into promising to never build their product in plants not manned with union employees. Now that is truly a recipe for failure in any business, especially one forced to compete in a global economy.

Sounds to me like you must have worked in a plant for at least one of the three domestics. Am I right?????

Nope!!! The worlds largest tire maker, but it wasn't a tire plant, an industrial products plant.

I've been on both sides of the fence! For 14 years a union production worker to the next 16 years salary mangement for the same company.

And Mark you are right. It's the unplanned vacancies that mess things up. 3 years of my 16 years on management was as a department supervisior. It would seem to be always the same people that would call in sick and at just before the start of their shift. But these might only be 1-2% of the people. Luckly, the company AND the union found a fair way to deal with this problem and these people at where I worked.

P.S.

I'm sorry!! I didn't mean to talking about "YOUR LIFE"! I just to meant to use something as an example for the way "ALL OUR LIVES" are! It the way all our lives are, sometimes there are pitfalls and sometimes there is great joys in our lives!

No problem, just underlined those pieces so my point didn't get lost in the translation. :cheers

And your experiences as a department supervisor are similar to those GM is experiencing, however their problem is much more wide spread, described by the analyst as "epidemic" in some plants, creating very lucrative opportinities for those willing to work their days off.

Just FYI - FMLA has become a well-used "benefit" by bargaining unit employees in the food production industry here in California, as well as the rest of the country.

Union management for a local chapter (with direction and support from their national chair) annually distribute a handbook on FMLA benefits. Not a bad thing, right? Well, consider the first page is devoted to encouraging every member to assert their rights under federal and state law as they relate to the FMLA Act.

It goes on to tell them they must apply early to gain eligibility, even if their MD has not yet certified their need. This can be obtained at a later date if certification is required. It also describes how the benefit can be "maximized through multi-dependent coverage". In other words, apply for FMLA benefits due to health care problems with your spouse, children, mother, father, etc.

We have conducted surveillance operations on cases where the bargaining unit employee has FMLA applications in place for four different dependents, called off to care for one of them only to be found playing golf all day. This same employee has four weeks of paid vacation, 15 sick days, 12 paid holidays, medical, dental, vision care, profit sharing and 401k matching, plus many other benefits yet he still feels compelled to steal time as though no one is really injured by his actions.

Company response? Spend millions to replace his forklift with an automated drone who can pull supply trains along virtual pathways in the warehouse. Rather than 100 employees per shift, we now have 20. The drones don't call off sick, work round the clock and have a built in depreciation schedule. Those 80 displaced employees have no one but themselves to blame.

Your correct!!! The intent of FMLA was noble! But then we get people that abuse it!

I may be able to top your story: When I was a supervisor, this guy was off work for medical leave. His back was so bad that he couldn't move at all, much less pick anything up. Had his picture and story in the newspaper from the local stock car race track how he won one of the races! Needless to say he not working there anymore and it only cost us the price of the local newspaper. This is one of the cases where I wished the company would've taken this person to court for insurance fraud! But that would cost $'s and they didn't want to spend it.

I know what you mean, most employers just want to seperate themselves from such employees. The cost (and publicity) is not worth it to them, although making sure the termination is water-cooler fodder works wonders on future would-be abusers! :thumbs

The strike is now over! The union agreed to take over the retiree health care costs but Gm will fund about 70% about 36 Billion the remainder will be funded and run soley by the union. That will shift the costs and risks to the union. That said ,now they will go after Ford and Chrysler for the same. All should be up and running by thru or fri. Its now 8am strike was settled early this a.m
I was in 5 unions and for the last 30+ years have run my own non union co with up to 25 employees. I see no place for them any longer. They ran the coal industry here in PA to nothing, the steel industry the same. Imagine Pittsburgh the #1 steel town on the Planet now make NO steel! Anyway the country has made a huge mistake moving offshore though it had no choice. God forbid we ever go to a serious war. We have practaly no means to manufacture anything big and in quanity ever again. Maybe thats why we have become a service industry country. What will be will be. Just remember the answer to most questions is always money and or Politics and that will never change. All things considered the ol' USA still the best place on the planet to live hands down.
Now lets all get back to work people were burning daylight here!!!! jim

Unfortunately as the country becomes weaker in it's manufacturing foundation, the jobs go away with it. If jobs go away, the services are not required or people can't pay for it anymore.:skep Hard reality. :nodno

Silver, What really surprises me as I travel is everwhere I go everyones lookinmg for help. Yet we have 4+% unemployed? Now I know I have accepted the fact that a lot of that statistic is they are mostly unemployable. I recently had to hire over the last 12 months 5 people under 30. I have since fired them all. I hear it everywhere I travel even out of the country by and large young people no longer want to work. Now I know thats a generalization but. talk to some see fro yourself. Id say more than 70% could care less. I was born in hard coal country NE PA where we were all eastern europians the town Im from Hazleton there pop. dwindled from way over 40+ thousand to the very low 20's then in the last 9 years 10,000 latinos moved in. Mainly for the jobs and low cost of housing. There have been problems but I wont go there. The latinos have taken the 12-15 dollar jobs that the locals dont want so they stayed unemployed while there jobs are filled. Now the cost of living there is a fraction than CA. even where I am you can buy a nice older home for 60-70K and taxes on that home would be maybe 3-400.
The country has changed as it should older guys like me 57 and more just are not used to the changes. I am but most are not. So we must listen to it all and ponder it!! Jim

I totally agree with the "unemployable" comment. Before leaving law enforcement and again in my present career field I had contact with numerous pre-employment screening processes. At this point our company's recision rate is nearly 20%! They just can't p-ass the background, due to criminal, credit or other disqualifiers.

And our younger employees negotiate differently. They place little or no value on medical, 401k or other retirement plans. They want to negotiate extra vacation time, personal leave, flexible work schedules, tele-commute capabilities, etc.

RUFCAR, There is no doubt, it's a changing world. Maybe I am old school, I believe in working hard and creating a strong manufacturing foundation. I know younger folks look for "extra vacation time, personal leave, flexible work schedules, tele-commute capabilities, etc." as WSWAIM said. But you know, when the same folks get just a little older, have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay and they loose their job because their business is no longer succesful or it's been exported to another country, they may change the way they see their contribution to society and the economy.

I think that we are entering into a new era with different values and economy. I hope that the adjustment will not be to hard on our children. :(

UAW = Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.

The figures include vacations, paid personal days off and medical leave, but the most crippling problem is employees who just skip work. Managers must scramble to find hundreds of replacements from pools of fill-in workers to perform tasks for which they may not be trained.

... Automakers and many UAW workers say there is no excuse for high absenteeism. Line workers receive up to five weeks of vacation and 17 paid holidays. When plants are idled for retooling or slow sales, workers also collect pay. "Sick days" are not provided and are supposed to come out of vacation time unless it?s a prolonged illness that requires a leave.

Japanese Employed Auto Workers = Honda Motor Co.?s Ohio plants offer bonuses of up to $2,600 annually, but workers who do not maintain a 98 percent attendance rate are put into counseling programs. Toyota Motor Co.?s Georgetown, Ky., plant conducts drawings for employees with perfect attendance. The prizes: free vehicles.

Just food for thought -- when those absent workers are replaced on the line, not only do you get an employee not trained for the task they are performing, they are earning overtime pay. So, you are not only paying the bum who stayed home, you are paying his replacement; time and a half. Makes you wonder what the price of a car would be if they would just earn the salaries they collect?
you left out that these are unskilled workers...

And the strike has been settled!!

:cheers




Wow, if I am hearing this correctly .... their union covers retiree's and their spouse's healthcare ..... what a sweet deal .... wish someone would pay ours!!

Well, the unions have done it again. How smart is it that GM is handing over to the union, some $36,000,000,000.00 in cash? (I just had to spell that one out.)

Methinks that even though GM claims that they are now better off, the union's Ron Gettlefinger must be laughing uproariously, all the way to the bank. Imagine giving control of $36B in pension money to of all people, the incompetent union thugs/bosses.

Attention you good guys in BG, get your retirement money up front when you walk, lest you end up with an empty bag.

Las Vegas Dave

They rolled over so fast you'd think they were a Corvair!!!:glol :glol

Actually the GM payout to UAW is is nothing new! Perhaps you've heard of the company that I worked for, Goodyear. The United Steel workers went out on Strike in Oct of 06, went back about Nov ( I had long hard hours then!!). But part of their agreement was to pay the union $1B for the retirees medical insurance. The managememt thought is was a great deal! Look at the long term! NEVER have to pay for retirees insurance anymore!! It's the union's baby now. If the retirees run out their insurance, who they going to blame now! Sure GM payed out $36B buts it's a cost they won't have any more, and I sure that they have a lot more retirees than Goodyear does.

Actually the GM payout to UAW is is nothing new! Perhaps you've heard of the company that I worked for, Goodyear. The United Steel workers went out on Strike in Oct of 06, went back about Nov ( I had long hard hours then!!). But part of their agreement was to pay the union $1B for the retirees medical insurance. The managememt thought is was a great deal! Look at the long term! NEVER have to pay for retirees insurance anymore!! It's the union's baby now. If the retirees run out their insurance, who they going to blame now! Sure GM payed out $36B buts it's a cost they won't have any more, and I sure that they have a lot more retirees than Goodyear does.

You're right, Chad ... and it just keeps rolling downhill ..... and there is a bottom. Pretty sad.:(

Unfortunately as the country becomes weaker in it's manufacturing foundation, the jobs go away with it. If jobs go away, the services are not required or people can't pay for it anymore.:skep Hard reality. :nodno

Yep, the Union got their money. Now the salary workforce will be squeezed to make up for the cost. At the end, the high tech jobs are (already) going oversea:(
I am proud to be an engineer. However, I do not want my children to get into engineering field. I want them to get into medical field. At least, they can't ship patients oversea,YET.

Haven't you finished working on that transporter yet. Just remember all that money I gave to you at the BBQ. You said cars will be obsolete just as soon as you finish the transporter. Is it true that you put a dollar in the transporter in Tennessee and a one hundred dollar bill came out the transporter you have set up in Ceasars Palace in Vegas? Lets just keep this between you and me.
Yep, the Union got their money. Now the salary workforce will be squeezed to make up for the cost. At the end, the high tech jobs are (already) going oversea:(
I am proud to be an engineer. However, I do not want my children to get into engineering field. I want them to get into medical field. At least, they can't ship patients oversea,YET.

He He He..!!! I'll wait for you guys In Vegas...! :cheers

Haven't you finished working on that transporter yet. Just remember all that money I gave to you at the BBQ. You said cars will be obsolete just as soon as you finish the transporter. Is it true that you put a dollar in the transporter in Tennessee and a one hundred dollar bill came out the transporter you have set up in Ceasars Palace in Vegas? Lets just keep this between you and me.

Careful guys!!!

Remember "The Fly!" :eek

Floyd

Is it true that you put a dollar in the transporter in Tennessee and a one hundred dollar bill came out the transporter you have set up in Ceasars Palace in Vegas? Lets just keep this between you and me.

Standby,
Watch out. the US streasure will not like that :nono . Very soon, the secret service (or the FBI) will contact you and I :glol :glol
wzlr

It takes 2 to sign an AGREEMENT. Y'all make it sound like management is stupid for doing so. The unions, nor the employees they represent are not bringing down the big 3, it is, IMO, poor management, and a bad product. I admit they are finally getting their crap together with Caddy models and we still have the CORVETTE, but Lexus, etc. make a better car overall, better residual value etc. Ya can't blame that on the unions. (fyi I am not in a union). Do you really think ford sucks because there is a 10% sick leave level? Fire the sick, don't be such a wimp, be good responsible management.

Didn't mean to get so serious, however there are arguements on both sides.

It takes 2 to sign an AGREEMENT. ... Do you really think ford sucks because there is a 10% sick leave level? Fire the sick, don't be such a wimp, be good responsible management.

Didn't mean to get so serious, however there are arguements on both sides.

I agree with you. The union did not let the AZTEC:nodno out the door.
The problem is that the "sick" and the unproductive can not be fired. Some of the people in the union (not all) took advantage of the contract because they know that they can not be fired. There should be a better way of working with each other between the management and the union. There should be a "give" and "take" on both sides. Utimately, the goal should be making better cars/trucks so the people can have confidence in buying their products. Selling more vehicles mean job security. Demanding higher wages (than compatible jobs outside of the union), more job bank and job security do not mean a thing if you don't have customers.


wzlr