Top will not operate - Cadillac XLR Forum: XLR and XLR-V Forums
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-18-2016, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Top will not operate

Took the 2004 out of storage about 2 weeks ago and put the top down, drove it for a quick 10 miles and parked it back in the garage with the top down. Battery tender plugged in. Took the car out today to clean and the trunk would not open nor the top operate. No clicks or wirrs just nothing. Opened the trunk with the key but had to lift hard to get it open. Tried the top a few more times and Top motor overheat message came on. Stopped trying and let it sit for a couple of hours still nothing. Checked the fuses but seem fine. Any ideas?
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-22-2016, 09:21 AM
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We're at that time of year where XLRs awake from hibernation and Folding Top problems start being reported. The symptoms you've described can be caused by several things. First, do these simple checks:

1) Verify the hydraulic motor fluid level is between the two lines on the reservoir. The reservoir sits on top of the hydraulic manifold. If it's low. . . that would be bad. . .
2) Using the Owners Manual --if you don't already know how, re-initialize the Windows. (Also called re-indexing.)
3) Try testing again. (Always with the engine running.)

Now for some more questions:

1) When you press and hold the Folding Top Control Switch, do both windows retract?
2) If they do, does the Front Tonneau (three flaps) open?
3) If they do, does the Rear Deck Lid Latch unlatch?
4) Can you raise just the Rear Deck lid?
5) Are the Folding Top symptoms the same whether you use the fob or exterior switch?
6) Have you manually raised the folding top and tried to operate it from the closed (raised) position?
7) After you let it cool off for a few hours, did the Motor Overtemp message reappear immediately, after several unsuccessful attempts, ever?

CC

Last edited by ccclarke; 05-22-2016 at 10:12 AM.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-23-2016, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Checked fluid level and it is just below max. Indexed the windows but all I get is top not secure on display. Windows do not go down and do not hear pump run. Trunk will not open via any of the electric options. Can open it with the key but must lift hard as key is turned or it does not unlatch. Checked all the fuses twice and even checked them with a meter to be sure I did not miss a blown one. Did put the top up manually but still only top not secure on display and no motor action. Motor overtemp display never came on again. I am sure with all the times I tried the top the windows did go down at one time but do not move now except the small amount when you close the door. any other ides would be most welcome. Do you think it just needs a relearn? Have had no luck finding a XLR certified tech at any Cadillac dealers in my area but still trying
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-24-2016, 06:11 AM
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The fact that your windows do not lower when the Folding Top Control Switch is depressed is troubling, since that is the first step in the cycle.

The Folding Top Control Module will not advance to opening the Front Tonneau until it gets a message stating the windows are in the lowered position.

You can try performing the power reset routine by disconnecting the battery for a few minutes, connecting the positive and negative terminals together and then re-connecting them to the battery, but it may not change much, --if anything. (You'll need to re-index the windows before trying to move the top again.)

With the fuses good, a Tech 2 diagnostic scan to look for any faults and top re-learn if the system tests good are the next steps to figure out what's going on.

CC
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-24-2016, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Red face

Tried the battery disconnect and re-indexed the windows, same result. Dash shows top insecure. Put the top down and back up again manually but nothings changes. Trunk will unlock with the key but not enough lift to get it up on its own without lifting hard on the trunk. Still hear nothing from the pump motor. Windows do not go down when top down switch is pressed, actually nothing at all happens. Are there any other vehicle manufactures that use this same top mechanism? Hoping maybe a Mercedes or BMW dealer may have the expertise to repair this if they are the same. Thankyou very much for the help with this problem. Although it is a hassle to put up and down the car still drives great and I will still enjoy
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-24-2016, 08:32 PM
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Do you get the "TOP NOT SECURE" message displayed on the DIC when you start the car, or when pressing the Folding Top Control Switch?

The same company that makes tops for the Mercedes SL's was brought onboard to build the XLR. I wouldn't be comfortable allowing anyone without GM scan tools and a Service Manual go near it if they didn't have experience with the Folding Top.

The cause of problem isn't all that hard to nail down if we can collect a lot of symptoms and compare what works to what doesn't.

The Rear Deck Lid is supposed to be hard to lift. You're fighting hydraulics. --And the auto-clinching latch mechanism keeps trying to pull it shut. That IS working too, right?

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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Top not secure comes on after starting the car. That is before trying the top down switch. In putting the top down manually I did find the micro switch that is for the rear tonneau flap was loose and hoped that was it but no difference. When I say the trunk is hard to lift I mean after turning the key you have to lift while turning the key or the trunk stays in the locked position. When closing the electric pull down works fine. When pressing the top down switch nothing happens at all, not windows down or hydraulic pump turning on. Even checked the switch in the glovebox to be sure the valet switch was working but seems fine. No power when turned on but power going thru when turned off. "Top not secure" is on even when top folded down into trunk manually and latched by hand

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-28-2016, 02:12 PM
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The rear deck lid should be hard to lift. That's a good thing. You're fighting hydraulics when the hydraulic bypass valve is in the normally closed position.

Just so we’re speaking the same language, the Rear Tonneau resides on the underside of the Rear Deck Lid when the Folding Top is closed. The three flaps in the front of the trunk compartment make up the Front Tonneau.

When you say the Rear (or Front?) Tonneau Switch was loose, do you mean the square sensor (potentiometer?) If loose, and re-tightened, that can throw the Rear Tonneau out of cal. The only way to restore the new Closed/Open values is to have a Re-Learn performed with a Tech 2.

Your windows should lower as soon as the system verifies the interlocks are in the proper configuration: Valet Switch off, luggage barrier in place, transmission in Park. If any of them aren't configured properly when the Folding Top Control Switch is pressed, a message will appear on the DIC.

Check out the condition of the connectors on the Folding Top Control Module. Make sure they're seated properly, then physically inspect the front face of both sets of connectors.

Ensure the engine is off before de-mating/mating these connectors.

While you're poking around in there, cash in some free insurance and verify your compartment drain line isn't obstructed or a high watermark exists inside the compartment, indicating previous flooding. When inspecting the drain line, yYou should be able to see the pavement through it.

If the compartment floods out from rain runoff through the trunk seals (very, very common) it usually takes the Suspension Control Module with it. This is expensive on a good day.

Sometimes, the TOP NOT SECURE message is caused by a faulty or misaligned windshield header switch.

If you have a meter, it's easy to check. The switch is located in the right side pin receiver of the windshield. You have to remove the two Torx screws to pull the assembly out and access the switch and it's short harness. Pull gently on the harness to expose the connectors. Ensure there isn't anything funky going on there.

Before de-mating, tie a 24" piece of string to the end of the harness opposite the switch. If it lands back in the windshield header with no way to retrieve it, you'll have a larger job to deal with. Once de-mated, check for continuity when the switch is depressed. If the switch is good, make sure it's centered in the pin receiver so it's depressed when the pin engages the receiver.

This is a great example of how a Tech 2 can save a lot of time troubleshooting - especially on the problematic 2004-2005 folding tops. If the FTC were working and taking inputs from the different sensors it uses to figure out Folding Top component positions, you could tell if a switch was stuck or a sensor was bad. If you plan to keep your XLR indefinitely, I can't recommend having access to a Tech 2 enough.

From what I can tell, the FTC is acknowledging the press of the Folding Top Control switch, getting a position error for a component and won't initiate even the window-lowering sequence, --which is first on it's list of Do's when the top is supposed to stow in the trunk. This is similar to a Valet Switch or Luggage Barrier Switch message which stops the operation in it's tracks, as soon as the Folding Top Control switch is depressed. (A high-level Interrupt for all you fellow geeks out there.)

If after doing the checks I've written up and nothing is obvious, we'll need to roll up our sleeves and look deeper.

CC
At this point,
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-31-2016, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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Did all the checks you mentioned. Rear well is dry and shows no signs of ever being wet. The duckbill on the drain tube keeps me from seeing out but all is clear. Checked all the connections and they all look good. It was the front 3 part tonneau cover potentiometer that was loose. Windshield switch is working and centered on pin. Still when you start the car after the normal greeting "top not secure" comes on the display. Still nothing when the top switch is pressed and trunk will not open. I must thank you for your efforts in finding this problem
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-31-2016, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Have spent a few hours going over old threads with the same problem and found the part number 19210515 for the potentiometers. Thought I would buy all three new ones to be sure they are not the problem before going to the dealership if I can ever find one. Are all three the same and are the red and green ones listed on gm parts the same. Thanks for the help
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 06:05 AM
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I don't remember seeing a problem where the Front Tonneau prevented the windows from lowering when the Folding Top Control switch was pressed, but stranger things have happened.

If the Front Tonneau sensor is out of cal, (and yours probably is since it physically moved) the Folding Top cycle will not start.

After the windows lower, the trunk unlatches and the Front Tonneau opens. Then the Rear Decklid raises, and the Folding Top unlatches from the windshield header and retracts into the trunk.

There are three position sensors; they monitor the: Front and Rear Tonneaus and Folding Top. If any sensor's fully open/fully closed values don't match those previously stored by the Folding Top Control module, the process is halted.

Determining where in the top open/close cycle it fails is usually a good indication of what sensor is bad (or misaligned.) Obviously, if the windows don't automatically lower, the cycle stops dead in its tracks.

Since the last thing that changed before the top failed was the Front Tonneau alignment issue, that's where I would start. The sensor could be fine, it just needs to be positioned securely - torqued to specs and epoxied in place as per the procedure, then a Top Re-learn applied to place the new fully open/fully closed values in the Folding Top Control module's memory. The Re-learn procedure takes about five minutes, so you shouldn't be paying for an outrageous amount of labor at a dealership.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Had a friend with a scanner do a scan on the car and found that the front tonneau and rear tonneau showed closed but an error code on another. Where is the third sensor located.? Front tonneau sensor close to cylinder that moves it and the rear tonneau sensor on the drivers side of the hardware to open the rear tonneau, but the third sensor seems hard to find. Have looked but just do not see it. Is it under the trunk lining? Sorry but I did dig a little deeper and found a post from 3 years ago that said were the third sensor is located. Is it very difficult to rermove the headliner to gain access? Do not want to do anymore without checking first so as not to do more damage.

Last edited by Dirk Van Veen; 06-01-2016 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Found more info
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 05:44 PM
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The Folding Top Position sensor is located behind the vinyl cover just behind the driver side headrest - on the interior of the sail panel.

To access it, you need to manually raise the top and position it 15.75" from the windshield header. That will provide enough slack to remove the sail panel cover and inspect/replace the sensor.

There are three interchangeable part numbers for the sensors, (they're usually listed as switches) 19210515, 88956588 & 88956589.

Without a Service Manual, you can easily get stuck chasing your tail while troubleshooting. If you noticed on the Tech 2, there are a lot of different status values stored for the parameters that determine whether or not the top will operate. I recommend creating a work sheet and note the status of each one while you troubleshoot and compare it to what's listed in the manual.

One option to consider is signing up for a $5 (single day) subscription here:

https://www.repairprocedures.com/index.php

I don't have a Service Manual for my daily driver, so whenever I need to research something, I sign up and spend whatever time is required copying and pasting the info and procedures into Word documents for later use. Over time, I've built up a nice trove of info for the majority of my car.

I can't guarantee they have all of the Folding Top procedures but it's worth a shot since it's so much cheaper than a paper manual. If it doesn't work, you're only out $5.

CC
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 10:21 AM
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More info here and a basic worksheet:

http://www.********.com/forums/cadil...problem-2.html

(This site won't let me post links to other XLR sites so I'll have to PM you.)

CC
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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I do thank you for all the time and effort you have given to this problem. I have printed off the entire thread to give to my mechanic with the hope they will find a solution. I did check out all three switches and they all seem fine so will take your advise and let a tech 2 find the problem. I am getting fairly good at putting the top up and down and now can be almost as fast as the auto system, save the scratches on the arm clamping the top in the final closed position in the trunk. Thanks again
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